The more the church looks into the cases of abuse, the more it will find, but that's precisely our job

The last time you gave an interview in Hungary was in 2019. There were similar issues in the spotlight then as there are now: child abuse was one of them, and church leaders were blaming the media instead of taking responsibility. What is it an indication of that this has not changed? Have you noticed any changes since you were last here?

I have been in Hungary for about ten hours, and what I see is mainly what I have been hearing and reading about it. Based on all of this, something did change in the last couple of years. In the last year or two, multiple cases of abuse within the church have been made public. This is an indication of something that I have seen all over the world: there is a growing need to have a dialogue about child abuse. I am holding a conference on abuse in the church today for the Archdiocese of Kalocsa-Kecskemét, which is something I could not have done in Hungary five or six years ago. Although it is slow, but there is change, and it is already noticeable.

One can see change at the diocesan level. But the attitude of the Hungarian Catholic Bishops' Conference (MKPK) is similar to that of 2019.

I have no direct relationship with the Hungarian Catholic Bishops' Conference. However, I did see that the Archabbot of Pannonhalma, Cirill T. Hortobágyi, gave an interview in which he spoke about child abuse in a tone which was different from the way the Hungarian Church approached it years ago. In that interview, he spoke about the cases that occurred in the Hungarian Church, as well as the need to communicate about it openly. This is a necessity. Those in charge of the church must speak out about these cases, because if they don't, the media will. This is natural, because that is the job of the press.

Cirill T. Hortobágyi, whom you mentioned, is also a member of the new taskforce for child protection called the Children's Table, which was launched this year. However, this initiative was not endorsed by András Veres, the President of the MKPK, what is your opinion about that?

I first heard about the Children's Table yesterday. Based on what I have seen in other countries, I believe it is important for the Church to be involved in such an initiative. That way one can be there and see the direction the situation is taking in Hungary. That way one can talk about the cases, set a course, and see what the weak points are that need to be worked on.

So should the leadership of the MKPK also be involved in this?

Yes, that's precisely what I'm getting at. If the church leadership is involved, then they will be aware of their tasks. There is then a greater chance of them recognizing and admitting to their responsibility.

The lack of a comprehensive report on child abuse within the Hungarian Church, neither at diocesan nor at a national level has been an issue for years. In 2019 András Veres said that the reason for there being no report is that they were never asked to produce one. Do you think that having such a comprehensive report is important?

Every report, every form of communication is important, we need to talk about the fact that these cases of abuse have occurred. It is also important to talk about exactly what it was that happened. This is part of the task of seeking the truth. Catholics must be able to face the truth, to acknowledge what happened. Only then can we obtain forgiveness. Being open with the public is also part of processing. And so is following up with those affected after their case has been made public.

One of the recent news on the subject in Hungary is that SNAP (Survivors' Network of those Abused by Priests) has initiated proceedings against six cardinals, including Péter Erdő. How serious is such an initiative?

I happened to bump into four representatives of SNAP in Rome shortly before I heard about the initiative, but at the time I didn't know that they were planning to do this. I think it is more of a news story than an initiative with a serious legal basis. But I am not familiar with the purpose of the SNAP initiative. However, it certainly points to the fact that cardinals who are going to attend a future conclave need to ask themselves how they approached the cases of abuse, what they did or did not do with the perpetrators during the canonical process. The issue of abuse will play an important role in a future conclave.

Why do you feel that this is just a news story?

I don't see the legal basis for the current initiative, nor the specific accusations, locations, names. In cases like this one, SNAP should adhere to the same procedural order that the church upholds. If, for example, I want to report someone in Hungary, it is not enough for me to simply tell the press that I want to report him. There's a police department, a court, a public prosecutor's office – I have to involve them as well if I want to ensure that my complaint is taken seriously.

The main reason for the initiative against Péter Erdő is the case of Attila Pető, who was the first person in Hungary to go public with his claim that he had been molested by a priest. Things went so far between the church and Pető, that Pető was reported by the church for harassment and ended up being convicted. Based on the experience of other countries, how common is it that such cases end up before a secular court?

I am not familiar with that particular case. What I have seen in other countries is that often it is either the victim or the church who initiates legal proceedings in similar cases. I have also seen cases where the church sues the victim for defamation. What usually happens in the secular court afterwards is that the bishops invoke the statute of limitations while the victims argue that the church should not be allowed to rely on that. If you take the legal route, you will get a legal response to your case. But the Church must remember that it cannot just provide a legal answer to these cases. We also have a duty to provide a moral and spiritual response.

But then, given the lack of trust, how is a victim supposed to turn to the Church?

The victims typically do not trust the church anyway, precisely because of what happened to them. This is why it is – or it would be – important for victims to be able to turn to well-informed, competent counsellors. One of the things I teach at a conference such as this one is how we, the church, can be a safer environment. We need safe spaces, safe human relationships, safe procedures. This follows from the Gospel, where Jesus calls the children to Himself. As a community, we are accountable for these victims, for these incidents. We need to listen to those who have been hurt by members of the clergy. And in the same way we need to be listening to those who suffered abuse at school, at the football club, or even in their own families. It ought to be the church's job to spot someone who is hurting and know what to do to help his or her case.

You resigned from the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors in 2023, citing problems relating to accountability and transparency. What was the breaking point?

I attempted to raise my concerns with the Chair on three occasions. I did not even receive a response indicating whether my messages had been received at all. Also, there was no transparency as to where the money was coming from and where it was going within the organisation. There was also no communication about the criteria for how positions were allocated on the committee or what its purpose was. Then we began to cover areas that were not within our purview, things that were not within the competence of the committee. For example, they wanted to respond to the guidelines of a bishops' conference of a certain country, without being aware of how that country was functioning, and so on. So I ended up asking Pope Francis if I could resign.

Here, in Hungary, when speaking about child abuse in 2019, the head of the MKPK said that in his opinion, the reason why there are so few cases of child abuse in Hungary is because Hungary is family-friendly. Do you see a connection between the two?

I hope that Hungary is a child-friendly country, but regardless of that, abuse still exists in every country. According to WHO statistics, one in five girls and one in eight boys in every country in this world have been sexually abused before they turned 18. This is a credible statistic that covers the whole world. No country is exempt.

There have been reports of individual cases from many dioceses in recent years, and it seems that the diocese of Kalocsa was the first to share the problems with the public since the synod. What could be the reason we haven't seen such a stance from other dioceses since then?

It is generally true for the countries where a diocese has begun investigating cases, that more have been discovered. The disclosure of abuses is in itself a paradoxical situation. If the diocese engages with the issue, if it releases information and talks about the cases, then even more cases will come to light. This is a perfectly normal process. The more the church looks into the cases, the more they will find. Obviously, this can also generate a certain degree of fear: the thinking that if we don't talk about it, if we keep quiet, nobody will know about it, and there will be no new cases. But this is not the right way to go, because the church must serve the truth, it must demonstrate justice and mercy, primarily towards those who were abused.

You have addressed the unique situation of the churches in former communist countries in several interviews, saying that being under the repressive regime has affected the churches. How can such a historically burdened church suddenly become an open church, what does it take for that to happen?

One of the most important goals of the synod is for people to listen to each other, to talk to each other. If this is achieved, then the trust in the church will also increase. This cannot happen without trust. Without trust, the Church cannot even see where we go from here. In the former communist countries of Central Europe, for about 50 years there existed a deep level of mistrust: who can I talk to, what is the goal of the press, of psychology or of psychiatry, how might they take advantage of what I say. If such a mentality is present for almost 50 years, it will take at least as many years for it to disappear. But the church must be able to step out of this so that trust can be rebuilt.